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bcatt
Moderator
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Posted: Wednesday Oct 13th, 2004 05:31 AM |
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sslone:
Quite a few parts of your post hit close to home for me - but in several different parts of my life...
I have had two intimate relationships (my first from 1997 - 2000, second from 2000 - 2004) and then there is my baby's father. My daughter was born Aug 4 2004. 1st relationship mentioned here:http://www.better-answers.com/wowbb/forum10/36.html, haven't written anything regarding my most recent/semi-current relationship yet, but my baby's father is mentioned in this post:http://www.better-answers.com/wowbb/forum10/217.html, part of my take on the issue of men who see/treat women as objects here:http://www.better-answers.com/wowbb/forum10/239.html. Look for the purple text.
All of these men have prominent destructive traits - all are controlling and manipulative. Both of the intimate relationship partners are incredibly interesting and fun, intelligent and well read/educated, I care very much for both of them no matter how they have hurt me. My baby's father is also an alcoholic, and if you read my post about it, you will see that I don't have a special place for him in my heart and why.
So, my point is, I guess is that I have some experience with the maltreatment by someone you love and used to trust with my first 2 relationships. But the alcoholism and child safety issues relate to my baby's father. So in order to think about your situation, I have to take how I feel about the first two men, and put it in the perspective of my baby's father being one of those two men + an alcoholic (plus, I've not been married yet, but I HAVE been in long-term (intended to be permanent) relationships since I was 16 years old).
I think it is important for you to somehow show him that you are supportive of him getting better, but you are not supportive of him remaining an alcoholic. Advice for visitation, see post about my baby's father. Don't let him use the child to control you and/or the situation. I's not healthy for you to be controlled, it's not healthy for the child to be used as a pawn for him, and it's not healthy for anyone to enable or condone his alcoholism and co-dependence.
I like to remember (being a more than a little screwed up myself), that even the screwed up people deserve to be loved, and at least to be treated fairly. But, if we love somebody, we want them to be healthy and we don't help them (even indirectly) in pursuing unhealthy behaviors that will hurt them and/or others. An unhealthy behavior needs to be looked at from two points of view: 1-the moral view, what is "right" and what is "wrong" 2-the empathetic view, what is the person experiencing?, what are they acting out?
Your husband quite obviously uses drinking to hide from some reality or another that he doesn't want to face head-on. That's what addiction is about, the type of addiction doesn't matter, what makes it an addiction is that it is a habitual act used to escape from reality: shopping, sex, gambling, porn, ice cream, handwashing, heroin, alcohol.
OK, I am constantly thinking up new theories on things as I talk/write/think, so bear with me, and feel free to challenge me  .
One guess is that he might have the control issues from his childhood, he has transferred them into his marriage with you, he doesn't like the way he treats you and doesn't know how to undo his programming and is too lazy or unmotivated or disorganized to learn how to reprogram his attitude towards women (seeing them as submissives/slaves), and he drinks to numb him to the pain resulting from his laziness or whatever is keeping him from learning better ways to relate.
Another guess is that he may be drinking to hide from something in his past and may also be taking out on you, things he couldn't/didn't take out on someone who wronged him in the past.
Maybe one or both of his parents were also alcoholics, it is now known as a genetic disease because of how it runs in families. I know I probably just raised alarm bells in your head about you son - I can tell that your son has a reasonable head on his shoulders because of how you described him not wanting to stay with his father without you present.
Children are amazingly intelligent - without even trying. Little scientists. I know I will learn so much more from my daughter than she will learn from me - theirs is a more innocent and untainted point of view. Children are all loving and benevolent - sometimes too much of the wrong type of trauma can change that, but understand that much trauma and hardship can be character building if handled the right way. I am not saying that you should intentionally expose your child to an alcoholic. Quite the opposite.
Your son is smart and perceptive in not wanting to be alone with his father. Build on that, but don't use him as your pawn, this will cause him damage. I don't know how old your son is? But start right now becoming a very open, honest and safe communicater for him. You may already be, but I'll say it just in case - there are lots of us out there that don't know how to be safe listeners and communicators for our children - this does not make us bad parents, it just means we still have more to learn because we are imperfect like everybody else. What makes us bad parents is if we recognize that we could use improvement but refuse to do so, or are too lazy to do so, or are simply unwilling to recognize ourselves as having faults.
Anyway, he knows something is going on, even if the alcoholism, verbal abuse, etc has been hidden. He knows, so you have to make it safe for him to talk to you. Being a safe listener is hard for me to go into here, to stay concise. But I guess an exaple would be something like, if he asked you to knock before coming into his room, you might feel like he's pushing you away, but instead of reacting to your personal hurt (it's normal), you think about what he's feeling - he's growing up and has hit a phase in his childhood where he needs privacy (every emotioally healthy kid has a phase like this, or several), tell him that that's no problem and your still there for him if he needs to talk to you. Not judgemental, not reactive, not negative - understanding. So, having this kind of relationship will help him open up about his feelings about his father and will prevent a great amount of potential damage to his well-being.
Don't let your husband use your son, remember. I think I am rambling and jumping all over the place, but I willtry to collect my thoughts.
I think writing your husband a letter would be a good idea. He could read it whenever and as often as he wanted, so he'd have a better chance to absorb what you're saying (alcoholics have difficulty retaining what you say from my experience). He couldn't debate whether or not you said something or didn't, it's in writing. You can't have an argument with a letter, it doesn't talk back or change its stance.
I think it's important to make sure he is aware that his child's rights come before his because of the fact that his child is defenceless and dependent and he is not. Your husband can defend himself, your son cannot. Tell him you are seeking support from Alanon or whatever group you find (if you choose to go that route), and encourage him to deal with his drinking. This is important for your son, whether or not the relationship survives. Let him know that he MUST be sober to visit his son. Make sure you are clear that yiou are against his drinking, and not against him. He and his behavior are two different things. A good person can do bad things and a bad person can do good things. He is not his behavior. You love him, you hate the drinking. He will not be prepared to quit drinking if he thinks he is worthless and you hate him, that will be just another reality he will want to escape.
Most important, he must be sober to se his son! I know I've said it already. Your son is wise, he doesn't want to be alone with his father, talk to him about it, and assure him that he will not be alone with his father until both of you (you AND your son) decide that it is safe to do so. Your husband may become drunk while in are of the child, that is definiatly not safe. Top priority. But make sure that your son will NEVER be scared to tell you that he DOES want to stay with his father. That is the essence of what I mean about being a safe listener. If you tell him his dad's a bad person and will hurt him and you don't want your son staying there, your son will be scaredto tell you if he starts seeing improvements and good things about his father. Encourage him to see the good in his father and talk openly with him about the fact that his dad has an illness, that it can be fixed but it's hard work and explain how you can both be supportive of him getting better and what things seem loving but really don't help. This conversation looks different depending on the age/stage/maturity of your child, but it is essentially the same convo whatever a/s/m, just put differently, approached inan age appropriate way.
So, let your husband know that you care about him getting better. And make sure not to enable his alcoholism or control addiction. Put your expectations and what is happening in writing so he always has a rference. Make sure it is understandable to him. Make sure you are sending the message that you are FOR him and AGAINST drinking.
I concentrate on the drinking because I think the controll and attitude issues are pintless to work with while he is still drinking.
I think I have blabbered enough for now.
Email me if you want: bcatt@telus.net, I don't mind discussing this with you if you are still in need of support.
Good luck!
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Dr. Don Fava
Administrator Diver
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Posted: Sunday Jun 20th, 2004 11:25 PM |
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sslone
Sorry so late. I hope you got the info that I have been deathly ill and still am.....Ebola I think...not really but it feels like it....
I just zapped your answer....a good reply explaining your predicament.....See, I am not all here......still sick.
To outline it....You married young, as a teen, before you could develop an identity of who YOU are. He was so much older you adopted his beliefs and values as your own. You also no doubt saw him as kind of fatherly......so being Mrs.....was a natural for you. The alcoholism you put up with out of fear and guilt....in spite of how it was destroying you.....In many ways you still are 19 both emotionally in response to him, and in his eyes. He must be pushing 60 so your relationship is at a point he no doubt feared for the whole marriage. He would get old, you would lose interest. He cannot see the effects of his over-control or alcoholism......he most likely just sees you not wanting him any more.....the dread he always had......Actually, like many, he created a self fulfilling prophesy.........what he feared ...he created through his alcoholic and abusive behavior......To him you are property..........after 20 years of living this way...a part of you believes this. That is why it is so hard for you to take necessary action......
You do not have much in the way of a support system.....you need one and need one bad......Like you said you gave up many friends..........over the years. A therapist would be a help,,,,but not enough. Have you heard of ALANON.....it is free and for the partners of alcoholics.....You will hear your story over and over if you go to a few meetings. Newcomers are always given special welcomes and phone numbers for help,,,,whether legal or just advice.....You should go to a few..........I say a few because each has its own character and you will find some more fitting for you than others........
Since I screwed this reply up.....You can PM me for added advice and info......I just cannot rewrite the whole thing now.......
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sslone
Member
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Posted: Wednesday Jun 9th, 2004 06:07 PM |
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My husband and I had been together for a little over 10 years. I was 19 when we met. He was a lot older than me, almost 20 years older, but I had more in common with him than anyone I had dated that was closer to my age. We were together almost 2 years before we got married. Being married and being a step-mother to his 2 children from a previous marriage just seemed to fit. I enjoyed it. He always depended on me to take care things. He worked long hours most of the time, so I took care of the house, the finances, running errands, and the kids when they were with us. I didn't mind the extra responsibilities, with his work schedule he didn't have much time for anything else but he did help out as much as he could. And when he wasn't working, he spent his time with me and the kids. We went places and did things together and with the kids too. We would spend hours talking about anything and everything. We were really close and I enjoyed spending time with him so much that I didn't do very many things without him. I didn't go shopping with friends very often or anything like that. I worked and went to school part time too. I didn't have a whole lot of free time myself. So what free time I did have I spent with him and the kids.
In the beginning of our relationship I was very happy with the person that I was. I was strong willed and very independent. I was a take charge kind of person. I made decisions based on what was best for me not what everyone else thought was best for me. I lived my own life. But somewhere along the way, all that changed. It was always very important to me to be a good wife. I wanted to be a wife that my husband could be proud of. And I worked very hard to be that. My husband had always drank. I knew that from the beginning. He was going through a divorce when we first met. That was his reason for drinking then. It was a very long drown out divorce that had gotten pretty bad at times. I didn't think drinking was going to help things but I could almost understand how someone could see that as a way to escape things for a little while. But he promised that he would so better and not drink as much. He never promised to quit but he promised to slow down. I believed him and he did for a while. Later I realized that he was an alcoholic and had been for some time. But it was too late, I had already fallen in love with him. I didn't like the drinking but I tolerated it. It didn't really start to bother me until years later.
I was so determined to be a good wife and to love him more than anyone had ever loved him before, that I made him the center of my world. Everything revolved around him. I've heard people say that's what you do when you love someone. Well maybe that's true but in my case I look back now and I feel like it was probably a mistake. Everything I did was for him or because of him. It's like I almost stopped thinking about myself or for myself and started doing everything to please him. He was always very jealous. I always thought it was because I was much younger than him and it was just out of fear of losing me. So I tried that much harder to make sure that he knew I loved him. I stopped doing things with friends. I stopped going shopping and things like that with my sister and my mom. I thought if I went anywhere, I had to be home by 7 or 8 in the evening. I had to be there to cook supper so he could get in the bed on time. I thought if he was home, I had to be home too. I worked and I went to the grocery store and things like that but the rest of the time I stayed home. After a while it got to the point that if I did go anywhere and I was late getting home, we would have a huge fight over it. After a while I guess I got tired of the fighting and just started avoiding those situations. If I stayed home all the time, he was happy and we didn't fight. The only time he didn't say anything was if I was doing things with his kids. If I took them somewhere and we were late getting home that was fine. He would never say anything. I guess I let him take control of my life. And he enjoyed it that way. Looking back now, it seems like the harder I tired to be perfect for him and love him, the less he cared about me.
A little over 4 years ago, I got pregnant. A real shock to someone who thought they could not have children. My husband had always made it clear that he did not want anymore children. Since I couldn't have children anyway, that was never an issue. We had never even discussed children because there was no reason to. So the day I found out I was pregnant during a routine physical, the first thought that went through my head was complete shock. The other was how is he going to react to this. I was scared to death all day waiting for him to get home that evening. I had no idea what he was going to do or say. His first reaction was he got mad. I guess he was as shocked as I was and that was his way of expressing it. I couldn't even mention the baby around him for couple of weeks. After that he got over being mad and accepted the fact that like it or not it was coming. But he never got excited about it or anything like that. He started drinking more right after that. Since then it's went from bad to worse. While I was pregnant he acted as if nothing was going on. I was still expected to take care of everything as I always had. And I did the best I could. After our son was born, I realized that taking care of him was on my list of responsibilities but not on his. It didn't matter how long I had been without sleep or how many nights I had been up walking the floor with a crying baby, it was my problem not his. Other than giving him a bottle ever once in a while or holding him occassionally, usually long enough for me to fix his supper or pack his lunch for work or something like that, he didn't do anything else to take care of him. I was expected to make sure his life stayed exactly the same regardless of the price that I had to pay to keep it that way. I felt all alone most of the time. I felt unimportant at least to him. He didn't pay much attention to me. We never talked unless it was about his job or something like that. He stopped going places with me. He didn't even sit in the same room with me and the baby most of the time. I felt so unappreciated. Like I was doing everything for nothing.
As his drinking got worse our marraige did too. He would get drunk and say horrible things to me. He started putting me down and doing and saying things to make me feel stupid. I got to a point about a year and a half ago that I thought he didn't love me at all. I felt like he stayed there because I took care of him. I felt like a maid and a cook. Someone to wash his clothes, clean his house, cook his meals and take care of his kids. I thought about leaving him but I was so scared to try to make it on my own. I didn't just have myself to worry about anymore. I had a child to support too. And besides that, I still cared about him. I tried and tried to talk to him about how I felt and the problems that we had. He would always get mad. He said that all I wanted to do was fight. That he couldn't even come home from work and see any peace because I was always running my mouth about something. I was the only person who had a problem with his drinking, everyone else loved him when he was drinking. The worst part was that after we would have a big fight or after he would get drunk and say the most hurtful things he could think of to me, he would get up the next morning and act like nothing had ever happened. And I was expected to act that way too. If I acted like my feelings were hurt or like I was still mad at him, he would get mad again. He would say that I was just trying to keep trouble going all the time. Then he would start threatening to leave. After a while, I gave up. I stopped trying to talk to him. I stopped caring about him or our marriage. I just didn't have the energy to try anymore. I couldn't please him no matter what I did so why bother. The last conversation we had about our problems, I told him that I would keep my mouth shut and I would stay there as long as I could stand to. But that when it go to the point where I couldn't take anymore, I would leave and never come back. Seven months ago I reached that point and I told him it was time for him to get out of my house and out of my life. Since then we have filed for divorce and it will be final the 15th of this month.
After we filed for divorce, he had a sudden change of heart. He started promising me the world again. He promised to stop drinking but he didn't. When I asked him why he kept promising me that and then turn around and get drunk the next day, he said he would stop drinking if I would let him come back home. I told him if he really meant it he would stop now. He would prove to me that he can stop. But he didn't. He would be nice and sweet as he could be until he got mad about something and then he would get drunk and start calling and yelling and cursing like he always did. The last 2 or 3 months he's acted like a crazy person. He has had me followed. He has tapped my phone. He has threatened me. He threatens anyone that I talk to. All kinds of crazy stuff. He does all of these things when he's drinking. Then when he sobers up, he calls and apoligizes and that's supposed to make everything ok. He keeps pushing me to take him back. He pressures me to come and stay with him or to let him stay at my house. He's using our son to keep track of what I do and where I go. My son won't stay with him by himself. I guess that's because his dad has never really done anything to take care of him. He's used to me doing everything for him and he won't let his dad do anything. The only way he will stay with his dad is if I stay with him. He won't stay and let me leave, he cries until he makes himself sick. My husband is using that. He asks to see our son all the time, he knows I won't refuse to let him spend time with his own child. I feel like that's just an excuse to get me there. A way to get to be around me so he can try to convince me that I'm making a big mistake, that I'm going to destroy our son and that he really didn't do anything that was bad enough to give me reason to divorce him. He says he loves me but to me it almost feels like he's obsessed with me. I feel like that's why he calls 10 times a day to see where I am and what I'm doing and why he pressures me into spending time with him. I think he knows I'm afraid of what he's going to do next and he knows if he pushes hard enough I'll give in just to keep him from going nuts again.
My problem is that I still feel like I have to do everything to please him. I can't stand up to him even when I know he's wrong. I feel like he's still in control of my life. I planned to go to a cookout one weekend about a month ago. Some friends from work were getting together and cooking out and asked me to come over. He found out about it and threw a fit. Told me I couldn't go out because technically we were still married and it would look bad for me to be out partying and leaving our son with a babysitter. He made things so miserable that I didn't go. He found out I was talking to a friend from work on the phone ( while he was taping all of my conversations). This friend happens to be a guy. He said I was having an affair. I told him what I did was none of his business anymore. He says yes it is you're still my wife until those papers are signed. He's made my life a living hell for over 2 months now. And I know there are ways to put a stop to all of this stuff legally but I can't bring myself to do it. It's like I'm afraid of what he's going to do if I try. Why can't I stop feeling so weak and helpless where he's concerned? Why do I feel like I still have to please him, like I still have to pacify him all the time? Will I ever be able to just stand up and say no to him? How do I get back to being strong willed and independent like I was before? I haven't went back to him. But it's been really really hard not to. I've considered it several times but not because I still love him and want to work things out. I've considered it because it would be easier. I still feel like he's controling my life, I'm still having to put up with his drinking because I can't make myself not answer the phone, even when I know he's drunk and there's no way you can talk to him. I still pick it up every single time. What's going to happen after the divorce is final and he finds out I'm going out or seeing someone? Am I still going to feel like I'm doing something wrong? Am I still going to be afraid of what he's going to do or say? I feel so confused and angry because I know I shouldn't let him do me like this but at the same time I don't know how to stop it. Is there any advice you can give me on how to get over all these feelings I'm having? Anything you can do to help would be greatly appreciated.
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